Re: Internet Access (The Lack Thereof) At ITEC (was Re: regarding "just plain works" as a goal)
--- On Wed, 10/8/08, Billy Crook [email protected] wrote:
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 15:13, Leo Mauler [email protected] wrote:
BTW, wouldn't calling KCLUG a non-profit be untruthful?
No. It would not. Show me what profit we make. Calling it a 501(c)3 would be untruthful.
I'm sorry, but this erroneous opinion of yours needs to be pointed out publicly so that others can realize exactly where the law regulates the use of the word "non-profit."
In the original message, you wrote:
On Wed, 10/8/08, Billy Crook [email protected] wrote:
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 16:46, Leo Mauler [email protected] wrote:
Secondly, every year for the past three years there hasn't been reliable free wireless Internet on the ITEC Exhibitor floor. This means that the option of showing people the Internet on the demo Linux PC will most likely not be available, which prevents people from seeing the "blinkenlights" Internet (for good or bad).
Bring a wire. Find a hole to stick it in. Convention halls usually have ethernet. I guarantee there's not going to be hundreds of people there, and no internet. Not in 2008.
And the part which is vitally important as to why "calling KCLUG a nonprofit" in order to solicit donations could be a problem:
If they want to charge, bring a 300 foot cable, and a router, and walk around telling other vendors your a nonprofit, and beg for bandwidth. If you really want it, bring a sign for whoever agrees that says "we support the KCLUG" for whoever cooperates.
Claiming to be a nonprofit "because you make no money" is one thing. Thats free speech. You're referring to your lack of profit and having a good laugh without affecting anyone else.
Claiming to be a nonprofit and then **using that status to ask for donations** is another matter entirely, may constitute fraud if your organization is not a recognized IRS 501(c) organization (legally the term "nonprofit" only applies to 501(c) organizations, and in a strict sense only to 501(c)(3) organizations) and requires considerably more paperwork (state and federal) than just "bringing a sign". It may not be an outright lie, but it is bending the truth just enough to constitute fraud. The organization which gave us the Internet access may assume some form of tax deduction for the "gift", since we referred to ourselves as a "nonprofit", and if denied said tax deduction, could conceivably sue for fraudulent charitable solicitations.
And then there's the matter of filing the state taxes on the donated Internet connection, since KCLUG is not exempt from taxes on income. Who here wants to volunteer? The Kansas Attorney General would be only too happy to step in and find the person who went around fraudulently claiming KCLUG was a nonprofit organization and hold that person personally responsible, if KCLUG was discovered to be the disorganization that it is. The cost of the Internet could be rather expensive, depending on the organization which "donates" it to us.
Booth electricity is agreed-to as part of the booth itself, as is the booth, and the booth is given "free", so it technically has no monetary value and thus no taxation rules apply.
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 02:37:16AM -0700, Leo Mauler wrote:
Claiming to be a nonprofit and then **using that status to ask for donations** is another matter entirely, may constitute fraud if your organization is not a recognized IRS 501(c) organization (legally the term "nonprofit" only applies to 501(c) organizations, and in a strict sense only to 501(c)(3) organizations) and requires considerably more paperwork (state and federal) than just "bringing a sign". It may not be an outright lie, but it is bending the truth just enough to constitute fraud. The organization which gave us the Internet access may assume some form of tax deduction for the "gift", since we referred to ourselves as a "nonprofit", and if denied said tax deduction, could conceivably sue for fraudulent charitable solicitations.
Actually ALL 501(c) organizations are non-profit. 501(c)(1) through 501(c)(28). Charitable organizations are NOT the same as non-profit organizations and are in fact a subset of them. I.e. there are non-charitable non-profit organizations. (The chamber of commercs is a 501(c)(6) organization, and is a non-profit, non-charitable organization) 501(c)(3) donations are tax-deductable, but donations to other 501(c) are not.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/501(c).html
This is entirely moot; however, as KCLUG is not incorporated as a not-for-profile corporation in any state, which is a prerequisite for obtaining IRS 501(c)(3) status in the first place.
And then there's the matter of filing the state taxes on the donated Internet connection, since KCLUG is not exempt from taxes
A friend bought (donated?) lunch last month. I don't plan on reporting that as income, nor does he plan on deducting it. No fraud was committed by either of us.
on income. Who here wants to volunteer? The Kansas Attorney General would be only too happy to step in and find the person who went around fraudulently claiming KCLUG was a nonprofit organization and hold that person personally responsible, if KCLUG was discovered to be the disorganization that it is. The cost of the Internet could be rather expensive, depending on the organization which "donates" it to us.
Based on the fact that we wouldn't be able to on give the donor a receipt, (another requirement these days) I don't think there is a problem here.
Booth electricity is agreed-to as part of the booth itself, as is the booth, and the booth is given "free", so it technically has no monetary value and thus no taxation rules apply.
The booth is donated, by the way. Or perhaps we could get the internet connection for "free" instead of having it "donated".
Regardless it is irrelevant, since nobody would be expecting to receive a tax deduction for a charitable-donation when giving things to the group.
IANAL, but my wife is on the board of a 501(c)(3) Missouri non-for-profit corporation (2 years as chairman).
Thanks, -- Hal
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Hal Duston [email protected] wrote:
Regardless it is irrelevant, since nobody would be expecting to receive a tax deduction for a charitable-donation when giving things to the group.
However, a business might well give us things of value for the advertising value, like when a radio station has tickets to some event coming up they give to Caller #3. The people putting on the event are not seeking a charitable deduction, but forego receiving any money for the tickets in exchange for the DJ talking about the event.
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Hal Duston -
Leo Mauler -
Monty J. Harder