I wouldn't mind stepping in for Steven. Standards are the biggest thing that seems to be a key point in why not to change to a forums like page. I wouldn't mind learning and possibly implementing a replacement site. If not a new face adding to the old.
Jonathan
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:25:48 -0600, Steven Hildreth [email protected] wrote:
Wow am I ever sorry I brought it up. In my opinion, its now very obvious why the kclug site is static and visually archaic.
The window of opportunity I had for involvement has passed, therefore I withdrawal my contribution and respectfully decline any future involvement. I have several large projects starting this week and will be unable to contribute to this specific project - as I feel unless either someone concedes acceptance or someone mandates the acceptable minimal standards compliance this argument will continue until someone dies of exhaustion.
Good luck, and I regret I could not make a positive change in the overall appearance of the KCLUG presentation.
Regards, Steven
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:20:43 -0600, Jason Clinton [email protected] wrote:
Gerald Combs wrote:
OK, let me rephrase the question. What tenet of semantic design precludes the use of tables for general layout?
Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I really want to know. Googling has only turned up pages that tell you _not_ to use tables, without really explaining _why_.
Tables are designed for use in displaying _tabular_ data -- such as one might use a spreadsheet or a chart for. For instance, a two-axis value chart. The existence of tags such as the <th> gives one an insight in to the designer's intent here.
In semantic design, the desire is to maintain the /meaning/ of the page even when viewed without style. That is, when it is serialized. When a table that doesn't have tabular data in it is serialized it _may_ happen to be serialized in such a way that it is meaningful, but the vast majority of times it will be serialized in a manner which is neither structured nor meaningful.
For instance, consider ethereal.com as it is now:
-------8<-------------------------------------------------------------- Ethereal
The world's most popular network protocol analyzer
Search: ____________ [go-button.gif]-Submit Mirrors: [Choose Wisely] Go Home | Introduction | Download | Documentation | Lists | FAQ | Development | Wiki Latest Release: 0.10.7Resources
Introduction Download Documentation Mailing Lists FAQs Development News Advisories Publications Search Wiki Main site hosted by Network Integration Services, Inc.Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis
Ethereal is used by network professionals around the world for troubleshooting, analysis, software and protocol development, and education. It has all of the standard features you would expect in a-------8<--------------------------------------------------------------
Now, a couple of thoughts. You've placed the things you see before your content "Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis" there because they make sense in your visual layout; rendered above, though, not so much. For instance, if I were looking at this on an 16-line cell phone, I'd see three pages of data before I got to the main content area every time I opened a page in the site.
If you were concerned with the cell phone user's experience on your site (I know it probably doesn't really matter all that much for ethereal.com) then you might consider moving the auxiliary things like the mirrors list and the 'hosted by' message to the end of the page. You would also move the expanded resources list to the end rather than repeating it immediately after the short version.
These are things that you don't think about if you do table layout because you only see the significance of the data as it relates to its visual position on the page. The mirrors list, the hosted by message, the repeated link information are all well-placed visually because they are off-center. The main content area draws the focus in the visual layout and the other stuff 'surrounds' it providing for context and additional information. The same ideas you used for the visual version can be applied to the serialized version.
In short, the design goal is: short header (with skip links) followed by the content (in a meaningful outline form) followed by supporting links and resources (in outline form).
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